Friends…
Friends apparently don’t let friends buy Lil Wayne CD’s. LOL. The team over on CreoleInDC came together and helped me see that I should be ’shamed of considering leaving work in the hot-hot to buy the CD. Thing is, I had only heard two songs on the radio. Two songs that had good beats. Two songs where I couldn’t actually understand what the heck Lil Mumbles was saying. So I log in to my TAP Hostess email this morning and see that I have been sent an intervention email. I couldn’t click on it at work but when I got home, I clicked. I was mortified. It was nothing but filth. I felt dirty after about three bars of it. Needless to say, I’m without a Lil Wayne CD. Thanks guys.
For those not in the area, it was high Brittany Spears hot. Or as I said on another page, Bobbi Kristina hot. I was pissed that I had to walk out of my office building to my car THEN get out of the car to go to the grocery store THEN back out into the heat to get back in the car THEN out of the car again to walk up 73 flights to get to my front door. Thank goodness I got some serious central air. My heart goes out for people who don’t have air.
So today’s topic: Sexual harassment. There are a couple chicks at work who come through kinda snazzy. It’s funny cus we (yeah I am snazzy in that setting) all shop at the same stores and have a lot of the same stuff. This is probably because we all are similarly shaped. We agree that there are only a few stores/brands that we can wear off the rack. There aren’t that many dudes at work. Or, well, there aren’t that many dudes who speak. There are old men who stare. But they don’t talk.
Commercial Break: On someone’s blog there was talk about the differences in how Black and white men approach women. I have seen this. However, there’s a dialect of Manspeak that is universal. It’s dirtyoldmanese! Going in the store I I got, “Uh, yeah. Look at that.” as he removed his dirty old man sunglasses so I could be creeped out and sure he was talking to me and about me. This, I got from a white man old enough to be my momma’s daddy’s daddy! Then, as I was coming into my home, I got a, “Oh nah. Don’t hurt em.” This from a Black man. I’m assuming he was old because his beard was gray. BTW, grey facial hair ain’t secksy. So yeah, oldmanese is a dialect that spreads across race. And it’s creepy. Make it stop.
There are a few guys at the job that talk and one who touches, complements outfits, etc. He doesn’t bother me. We’re cool. We’ve kicked it outside of work. He’s married. His ass is all talk. His ass is happy he found a woman to marry him and make babies with him. Another coworker said the same thing of him, that he’s harmless. However, there has been an incident where someone reported him to HR.
I had to really think about what he does and if I would ever consider his behavior harassment. The answer: Yes…If it made me uncomfortablw which would only be the case if I didn’t know him. Which means that what he is doing is a problem. But if I flip the script, do I ever say anything to him that could be considered harassment? By those same rules applied to him? I don’t know. I do compliment him (his wife) when he wears a good shirt and tie combo. Is that wrong?? Only if it makes him feel uncomfortable. Right? And I know it doesn’t because he’s an attention whore.
I read THIS article yesterday. Basically, more men are bringing forth sexual harassment accusations against women. I would assume some of these are against ghey men too. But I don’t remember if it was in the article cus I read it way earlier. I think there are two reasons why so many more women file these suits. First, there are more men in powerful positions. Second, men are not as offended or made uncomfortable as easily. Third, even if they do feel harassed, it’ snot exactly man strong to complain that a woman is making you feel uncomfortable. Ok, that’s more than a couple. But whatevs.
If a woman tells a man that he’s looking good or asks if he’s been hitting the gym, his chest usually swells and he floats through the rest of his day. I’m not even sure it matters what the woman looks lik either. So, I have to wonder how far a woman really has to go before a man even thinks that he’s being harassed. Is it touching?? Or is it just doing anything to make the man feel uncomfortable? The twist is that the harassment tag seems so different for men and women.
I think a straight man would immediately know if he was being harassed by a ghey man. Maybe? I don’t know how many would actually report it. Same thing with man rape. I figure it has to happen but just mostly go unreported because a lot of men are flattered and becoming aroused isn’t always something men fully control. Eh, I don’t know.
How would you handle a scenario where somone considently compliments your clothing in a joking way? Say if said person touched you occasionally? What if they asked you to lunch and only asked you? Repeatedly?? They never say anything sexual. What types of things would have to happen for you to consider it sexual harassment??
I have a male co-worker (married) who flirts with me regularly. I’ve gotten to know him (prior to the flirting) and he, too, is harmless. He usually comes by to check on me with genuine concern, so we’re work friends of sorts. I’ve made my position clear, and there is no toughing going on. However, for me, crossing the line would be him trying to touch me (rub, pat. or whatever sexually) or kiss me, even on the cheek. We are not cool like that. He’s a sharp dresser, so I only compliment his clothing, not his body although he wouldn’t mind.
There’s another co-worker who has made off the wall comments at work, but we’ve gone out before. I could complain, but I opened that can by going out with him in the first place. As long as he doesn’t touch me, we’re cool.
I think touching is the rule for me. Comments I can check at the door, and most won’t cross that line again.
Thing is, if we are allowing it because we know these people, I wonder if other women who don’t now the dudes feel uncomfortable reporting it if the dude says anything to them that makes them feel icky?? So like if my coworker acts this way with most of the women here, and a new chick comes along, she might be less inclined to report him, even though he makes her feel icky, because everyone else seems cool with it. My general rule: Keep it clean.
Comment by A — June 11, 2008 @ 7:e am
im going through some mess with my boss. its really frustrating. it started with i guess “harmless flirting” and jokes (around all employees in the office) but now im getting emails that im 100% sure are him seeing how far he can push things, and just the other day he got a little too far for me. i told him i didnt like it but its frustrating because i dont want to lose my job by pissing him off. and for the reccord. im fully dressed (down) from head to toe, every day. jeans, sneaks, tshirts, and hoodies (because it STAYS cold in here).
When is your next work review? After you have it, assuming you get a glowing review, send his as an email asking him to stop making you feel gross. BCC yourself on it. This way, you have 1) proof that your work is not suffering, in the form of your review 2) proof that you asked him to stop it. This way, if you ever have to go to HR, or the EEOC, you have proof that this is a problem and they have no reason to fire you because your review said your work was wonderful.
Comment by peach — June 11, 2008 @ 7:e am
As with most things, I think it depends on the context. There was a guy at my job (he’s retired now which gives a clue as to his age) that would come over and say hi and give a shoulder squeeze. I can see some where some might find that a problem but I didn’t, for a number of reasons. For one, I knew it wasn’t sexual. He was old as dirt, I know his wife (she worked there too) and he did it to everyone, young or old, male or female. He was just a jovial and touchy kind of guy.
I think (and according to our company policy), it’s not sexual harassment unless you let the person know it makes you comfortable and they continue after that.
Right. But it’s tricky because I could feel uncomfortable when an unknown coworker does the same things as a known coworker. So then if I were to report unknown coworker, onlookers could want to lump known coworker in with other dude. Ya know? Maybe I should just get married, have sme babies and be a stay at home mom. This way, I won’t have to deal with all this office crap.
Comment by GeckoGirl — June 11, 2008 @ 8:e am
I knew you wouldn’t let us down by buying that Lil’ Wayne CD.
Peer pressure…90% success rate…LOL!!
Yeah girl! Thanks for keeping me on the straight and narrow.
Comment by Tsiporah — June 11, 2008 @ 8:e am
it does depend on your relationship w/ the coworker and what’s said. i’m the newbie @ my gig and there’s this one guy who says all types of shyt to other female coworkers and it’s all laughs and jokes. they’ve been working together for years, hang outside of work so that’s their thing i guess. however, dude doesn’t know me from a can of paint and thought it was cool to say inappropriate shyt to me with the rationale being “i say the same things to so-and-so and she doesn’t trip.” yeah but i’ve been working here 3 days and we ain’t ‘cool.’ so-and-so doesn’t have shyt to do with K. not only that but those broads are old as hell so they like the attention from a 30-something dude.
it’s the innuendo (the story about his ‘friend’ whose wife doesn’t want to do anal while he desperately does — why do i need to know this on my 6th day here???), the “jokes,” being too touchy-feely. i told him once to reign that inappropriate and unprofessional crap in. then i had to say it AGAIN but i let him know it would be the LAST time i said something TO HIM about it before he has a ‘problem’ on his hands.
i think that sometimes black folks in the work place get too comfy just b/c they see another black face. then some are just idiots and think that the workplace is a place to act the way they do out on the streets, smh.
I feel all warm and fuzzy cus you’re on a new job and already goofing off by reading my blog. I feel so special. Hee-hee. Yeah as for the Black thing, I think that does come into play. One the one hand, there’s ‘Yeah another one of us!” But that can cause folks to take liberties because you share that one thing in common. And what’s worse, is sometimes a woman (esp) doesn’t want to say anything if she and her harasser are Black–cus God forbd, she, as a Black woman, do anything to hurt a Black man’s paycheckBut eff that. You make me feel uncomfortable, you make me get teary-eyed when I pull into my parking space every morning, I’m reporting your ass and I don’t care about your race, creed, sexual preference, none of it.
Comment by K. — June 11, 2008 @ 8:e am
I just remembered (thanks K) that I once worked in a small office where I was the only Black. I don’t think the other Black girl considered herself Black. Anyway, the inappropriate jokes and comments were off the chain!!!
They would come in and discuss their sexual exploits between clients. The b-word flew all around, and they even had the nerve to share internet smut in our open office. Even the boss, a female, was in on it. It got so bad, I eventually left after only a month or so there.
Prior to that, I’d mostly worked in all Black settings and the coloreds tended to be a bit too formal for that. Then again, I think education had something to do with it. The only person with a completed degree other than myself was the boss. All of the brown settings in which I’ve worked have been with educated people.
*shrug* Who knows?
You’re such an elitist. Coming in here flexing all you fancy book learnin! LOL I think educated people might 1) have been exposed to the rules and/or 2) have something to lose so they don’t want to push the envelop too-too much unless they know it’s ‘acceptable’ to the reciever.
Comment by A — June 11, 2008 @ 8:e am
I do not flirt with women at my job. Granted I am a flirt OUTSIDE OF WORK but I am not one at work.
There’s just some things you don’t do.
Comment by Dr. Strangejazz — June 11, 2008 @ 9:e am
@Hostess,
Gray facial hair’s not sexy? Then you wouldn’t have liked me a couple years back when I had a graying goatee. LOL
For me to report sexual harassment from a woman, she’d have to be a supervisor and threaten my gig if I didn’t have chex with her. I’d have to talk to her and tell her to back off.
Otherwise, if she made crude remarks or flirted, I’d just smile and shrug off the behavior as just more junior-high workplace nonsense.
Comment by Profunksticated — June 11, 2008 @ 9:e am
Buy the Lil Wayne CD? I could have given you an innernets hook up a long time ago. I think.. wait.
I can’t.
I’m too distracted today.
http://sandrarose.com/2008/06/11/how-do-i-look/
I don’t know even know what to say.
OMG!! I hate you!! Have I told you that lately? HATE! YOU!
Comment by HC — June 11, 2008 @ 9:e am
HC is trying to get me fired…LOL!
Comment by K. — June 11, 2008 @ 9:e am
I think Saturday Night Live had a skit that introduced the truth about sexual harrassment.
It’s *only* sexual harrassment if you don’t like it.
They had an unattractive fellow give a simple compliment and an uber-hot guy give a clearly chexual compliment. Who did the woman file a complaint against? The unattractive fellow.
*um you know Kucinich brought up 35 articles of impeachment against Bush, right? I’m sure it won’t materialize, but I got to respect the man for putting his beliefs on record*
Comment by K.I.M. — June 11, 2008 @ 9:e am
I think Saturday Night Live had a skit that introduced the truth about sexual harrassment.
It’s *only* sexual harrassment if you don’t like it.
They had an unattractive fellow give a simple compliment and an uber-hot guy give a clearly chexual compliment. Who did the woman file a complaint against? The unattractive fellow.
*um you know Kucinich brought up 35 articles of impeachment against Bush, right? I’m sure it won’t materialize, but I got to respect the man for putting his beliefs on record*
Naw, I didn’t know. But now I gotta go do my research.
Comment by K.I.M. — June 11, 2008 @ 9:e am
@HC,
I clicked on the link. For a few seconds there, I was able to view it before the Blue Coat corporate innanet filters caught up with it. I wish Blue Coat had blocked it. Then I wouldn’t have seen it. Ugh!
LOL!
I was confused for a minute. I was thinking, “Why’d he send a link of some flat chested ugly girls?”
Comment by Profunksticated — June 11, 2008 @ 10:e am
I saw the impeachment counts Kucinich was reading on CSPAN(?) and for some reason it registered in my mind as a joke, as in this can’t be for real. Kudos to Kusinich for not being a punk and doing what should have been done a long time ago. Had GW been a democrat, the repubs would’ve lynched his tail in an impeachment a long time ago.
Comment by A — June 11, 2008 @ 10:e am
We’re close here at the gig and women and men often joke around with each other even touch an arm or a hug or a headlock (that was your boy who put me in a headlock cause I made fun of the picture they posted of him on the company newsletter..it was hilarious though). I would feel harassed if someone made a comment or gesture that led me to believe that my job was in jeopardy if I didn’t do x, y or z or if someone continued to approach me when I already gave them the steely eyed you ain’t funny look.
Yeah, y’all are like step siblings over there. I’m sure there are a lot of things that HR wouldn’t approve of that go on in your office. LOL
Comment by Honest — June 11, 2008 @ 10:e am
A friend once asked me have I ever been sexual harrassed at the job. I thought about it and felt there have been many occasions where someone looking on the outside may think felt I was but I didn’t. Getting complaints doesn’t bother me as long as they are not really vulgar. Looking at me doesn’t bother me. Just don’t touch me.
I had a coworker that would say “look at sexy woman, I see you with your sexy self” whenever I passed him. Didn’t bother me but I can understand how someone else could see something wrong with that. Hell those complaints just made my head bigger. LOL
I think it depends on the person and rather or not they are uncomfortable.
Ha but what if the man is ugly, with a lazy eye and a little bit of drool coming out the left side of his mouth everytime he sees you?? LOL I’m just being silly.
Comment by thoughtsofsoutherngal — June 11, 2008 @ 10:e am
Damn me and my almost child like innocent curiousity!! Why oh why did I ever click that link.
Se.x.ual harassment in the context of a hostile work environment is very subjective. As you stated everyone has a different comfort level and it does depend a lot how well you know certain people. You also have to realize that se.x.ual harassment suits don’t have to be filed, because that person was the subject of the actual harassment it could be a third party who witnessed what they thought to be harassing behavior and felt their work environment to be “hostile”.
Most men (IMO) are not as easily offended as SOME women can be in the same situation. I think you are right that MOST of the men who are offended may be too embarrassed to report that they were se.x.ually harassed by a other men or women.
Personally, se.x.ual harassment to me is when someone is repeatedly doing something (i.e. off color jokes, touching, flirting etc.) and I have already told that person to stop and they keep doing it.
Then of course there is the quid pro quo sexual harassment.
I think the key is to nip it in the bud the first time it happens and you feel uncomfy. Like with anything, if people do it once and there’s no consequence, they feel it’s ok to do againa and again.
Comment by Tsiporah — June 11, 2008 @ 11:e am
I’ve worked in highway and bridge Construction, so my tolerance level for “harrassment” is probably a little high. But I draw a hard line at touching. The “wrong” touch will get a man’s wig split.
I think after a man has worked with me for about a month or so they’ll know not to even go there with me. I usually let the men I work with know that I’m violent! LOL
I’ve worked in a office where the women were the aggressors. One woman used to slap this guys butt when he walked by. He was so stunned he just kept walking! I think it would take a lot for a man to accuse a woman. Basically there is no real threat of bodily harm from a woman.
Y’all notice it always somehow comes to violence with this one? I’m just sayin’.
Comment by onefromphilly — June 11, 2008 @ 11:e am
How do you tell a 23 year old that her code of dress in the workplace is unacceptable?
Especially since SH is used as a condiment for so many things.
Start with a lugh. Then say something like, “Now you know you’re doing to much. Make a choice: breast, legs or butt, but not all or even two of the three. Matter of fact, this is work. Cover it all up.” then get serious and tell her how being a woman in the workplace doesn’t mean she has to tradein her feminity. But it does mean she should wear clothes she’d have to change out of to go to the club at 5:01.
Comment by tanyetta — June 11, 2008 @ 12:e pm
@Tanyetta: Great point
Cleavage, tight pants, sexy-weekend shoes, dresses that clearly outline the beauty that is a woman’s body…great for after 6 pm, not quite the way to get respected for your intelligence before 6 pm.
And sometimes, “we” think that “we” can wear what people with no ASSets and TITleS can wear. That camisole might work on an A cup, but your D cup may runneth over. And that pencil skirt - umm not if it looks like an upside down ? No ma’am!
Whoa. Flag on the field! An ‘A’ cup shouldn’t be wearing that isht either. If Big Booty Betty can’t wear it, neigther should Skull and Skin Scarlet! It’s only fair.
Comment by K.I.M. — June 11, 2008 @ 12:e pm
I am so glad the intervention “took.” ROFL!
I don’t like people touching me and am quick to let them know.
Comment by CreoleInDC — June 11, 2008 @ 12:e pm
What’s really not fair is that women in the work place are objectified as chexual objects.
No harm, no foul, I know my measurements call more attention in certain outfits than those with smaller measurements. Therefore, what “Scarlet” wears and looks great & appropriate in, I might not because I know how my body will look in it (albeit, I’ll look great, I might not feel appropriate for work). I know this because I’ve tried on outfits that I’ve seen “Scarlet” wear to work.
Comment by K.I.M. — June 11, 2008 @ 1:e pm
It’s been a month, he still hasn’t found the ‘courage’ to say anything. He asked my advice on what to say…
She’s a LOUD person and gets pissed when people stare at her. I mean really, how do you expect people NOT to stare when you wear all that?
I know you’re NOT a stripper but, your style of dress says otherwise! I blogged about it!
Thanks everyone for the tips!
Comment by tanyetta — June 11, 2008 @ 1:e pm
@Hostess–the CD cover should have been intervention enough!
that baby had on a PANKY rang!
Comment by tanyetta — June 11, 2008 @ 1:e pm
I think sexual harrassment is about power. People flirt and touch and say stuff but you can nip that in the bud and it not be harrassment. Sometimes people just get too comfortable. You don’t hear people talking about a janitor harrassing them-its someone either equal or superior to them. I had an issue with a professor. I think he was attracted to me. He never touched me or said anything but he would stare me down…like ogling. Then he started blowing up my phone (late in the evening) about coming to his office. (usually the student is trying to track down a professor, not the other way around.) I started going (he was my advisor) but then I stopped because he was wasting my time and I found out no one else in the class was meeting with him like that. and THEN he started blowing me up saying if I didn’t come see him in his office he would fail me. So I had to complain. I never used the word sexual harrassment but this man did not want to meet with me just because I was smart. And it doesn’t really have to do with clothes cuz I was going to class in t-shirts and jeans, etc. he was just a dirty old man fronting like a professor.
Comment by missmajestic — June 11, 2008 @ 1:e pm
1st- I just want to apologize to everyone who clicked that link… especially you all with i-net censors or folks who may look over your shoulder.
My bad. But you know you sent that to 10 other people.
2nd- Every year we get a new crop of interns on the Capitol Hill. Fresh out of college or being an upperclassman/woman these folks struggle to deal with a fairly conservative and young Capitol Hill. Usually, I have to pull someone aside and say:
“Listen, there are two ways to dress here: as an intern or as a staffer. A staffer is very mindful of their dress. They want to seem as polished as the Member of Congress or at the very least the Chief of Staff. Forget politics, simple office politics start with appearance. You are not dressed inappropriate (even if they are), but you need to really be more mindful of your appearance here.”
Usually if it is a female I usually say, the guys here will not complain but they won’t also regard you with the same respect that you deserve as a hard working and intelligent lady.
Guys usually are easier… unless they are being inappropriate with their Lime green six button checkered Steve Harvey special suit. That is a WHOLE ‘nother talk.
Usually, it goes pretty well.
Yeah X 3 So uh, please remember me and all the hours of FREE entertainment I have given you if you find yourself with one extra ticket to the inaguration. BTW, it’s on my birthday and if you give me a ticket, I will accept it as a give from the entire blog community. Hook me up. Oh and don’t think I haven’t hit up my girl. I even offered to fold myself up and let her carry me into the spot in a big purse.
Comment by HC — June 11, 2008 @ 1:e pm
I blame my violent tendencies on George Bush, The Republicans, the Iraq war, BET, internet, and blogging.
Comment by onefromphilly — June 11, 2008 @ 2:e pm
I’m trying to hook myself up, Hostess!!
But I would gladly get you an official t-shirt or postcard if I go! VIP tix for the officially after party at The Park!
Seriously, I’ll see what we can do. I’m just focused on the Democratic Convention now. Inauguration issues will come later.
Comment by HC — June 11, 2008 @ 3:e pm
Many years ago, I left the State to work for the City- and worked for the Municipal Court Judge. We were all housed in the Police Dept.
I’m no prude, but I’m mindful that there ARE things that are just simply not appropriate to discuss, laugh about, etc at work. Period.
I heard more off color “jokes” (that really weren’t funny) and things that objectified women than most hear in a lifetime.
I didn’t stay there long. The grass isn’t always greener. Just the fact that people in these positions (judge, for crying out loud) felt like he could speak that way in front of us (office emp) was too much. I’m someone’s mother, daughter, sister, etc- and most of these guys have all those things and certainly wouldn’t have appreciated their folks being spoken to like that or in their presence.
I never reported any of it, although I considered it when I did my exit interview with HR- however, I knew that whatever I said would filter down and the hammer would come down on those employees left in the office, and I didn’t want that to happen either.
Comment by trac — June 11, 2008 @ 3:e pm
completely off topic, but had to share:
saw this relationship advice on dooce.com today (from a guest blogger she had) and it was like the heaven’s opened up. seriously:
“When I was single, I decided I wouldn’t marry a man unless I could be proud if we had a son who turned out exactly like him.”
Comment by trac — June 11, 2008 @ 4:e pm
@trac: I LOVE ME SOME DOOCE! I actually have a question based on that piece of advice. It was GREAT!
Comment by CreoleInDC — June 11, 2008 @ 4:e pm